Can a Mountain Bike Stem Be Too Short? What About Frame Size?

On 04/10/2014
By Gene
Can a Mountain Bike Stem Be Too Short?  What About Frame Size? These are questions we get A LOT from students, newsletter subscribers and random riders that found us during a search for a new bike. Over the years there has been a lot of experimenting with stem length, bar width and frame length, by bike manufacturers, bar/stem makers, top racers, myself and our coaches and many interested riders. While there is no “standard” in the industry in general stems have gotten shorter, bars wider and the length of the front of a bike (the “reach” measurement is the best measure for front of bike length, it is measured horizontally from the bottom bracket to a plumb line dropped from the center of the top of the head tube)  has gotten longer over the last 10-20 years. There are outliers which have stayed the same or even moved in the opposite of these trends but I believe they are not providing optimum handling.

 

Can a mountain bike stem be too short

The crew at All Mountain Cyclery putting a 50 mm stem and 780 mm bars on a XC Race bike!

The stem lengths I have experimented with range from my first mountain bike which had a 150 mm stem to a zero stem that Azonic put out in the mid-late 1990’s. Bike companies have done the same, most recently Mondraker, this article explains their idea: http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/07/19/mondraker-introduces-forward-geometry-are-you-ready-for-a-10-mm-stem/  My experience was the zero stem was weird because I had to almost lean forward to keep my weight equal on both tires for cornering but, that was a long time ago when I didn’t understand body position as well as I do today and unlike the Mondraker the bike I was riding was not designed around a zero stem. As for Mondraker they tried it out for a year and I heard they handled weird and they have since gone to 30-50 mm stems. Personally I have settled into the 35-50 mm range as stems this length give the most precise and “easiest” control. By easiest I mean when riding bikes with 35-50 mm stems I am not thinking about the handling. Put me on a bike with a longer stem, even a 60 mm and it feels odd, even after 4 days of testing (enough time that the “new is weird feeling” should have vanished). I now prefer 35 mm stems but on slightly shorter bikes I run a 50 mm (still experimenting). To me this makes since has motorcycles are designed  to handle well and they don’t drastically change stem length to accommodate shorter or taller riders. For some reason many riders think a long stem climbs better than a short stem, this simply isn’t true I and some of my riding buddies can climb the steepest, most technical trails with these stems, stem length has little to do with climbing, it is all about body position. So from the Mondraker experiment I would say that at least for now 10 mm is too short. From my testing and the testing of our coaches and friends we believe the ideal is 35-50 mm and 60-70 mm a compromise for riders with frames that are too short.

Frame length (reach and chainstay) for better bike handling. This is something I have experimented with for years as different sponsors have had different opinions on how long a bike should be. Mondraker obviously has too and many companies have been lengthening the reach of their bikes. Here is where I feel there is a too short and possibly a too long. In general the longer the reach measurement the bigger the “sweet spot” on the bike (the spot where all your weight is on the pedals) and more stable the ride. Of course if a bike gets too stable it is hard to maneuver.  Another big frame aspect that affects handling is chainstay length, the longer the chainstay the more stable but less nimble the bike, too short a chainstay and the bike feels twitchy. One manufacturer’s large can have the same reach as another’s medium so to understand what I am calling a large, medium and small the measurements on the Canfield Brothers 2014 Balance, http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/balance and Specialized Enduro 29er are what we will use. They make great starting points when discussing reach and chainstay length as I feel they have it pretty dialed (Canfield Brothers Balance has a reach 7mm shorter than Specialized Enduro and the Canfield brothers have short but not too short chainstays as does the enduro 29er). The tough thing for me is my height, I’m 6’3″ so I have no idea what it is like to be 5’2″ and ride a small. Fortunately our coach Andy Winohradsky is 5’6″ and I have discussed in length with him the differences between a small and medium for a guy his height. Andy has helped me shape my size theory below.

Metric Small Medium Large X-Large
Top Tube Length (Effective) A 563mm 584mm 607mm 627mm
Top Tube Length (Actual) B 528mm 547mm 571mm 594mm
Reach C 400mm 420mm 438mm 457mm
Standover Height (Based on 27.5″) D 681.5 726.5 744.5 754.5
Seat Tube Length E 381mm 431.8mm 483mm 508mm
Wheel Base F 1127mm 1148mm 1171 1192mm
Head Tube Angle 160mm Fork (Internal Headset) G 66.5° 66.5° 66.5° 66.5°
Head Tube Angle 160mm Fork (External Headset) H 66° 66° 66° 66°
Seat Tube Angle (Effective) I 75° 75° 75° 75°
Seat Tube Angle (Actual) 69.3° 69.3° 69.3° 69.3°
Chainstay Length J 425mm 425mm 425mm 425mm
Bottom Bracket Drop K 5.5mm 5.5mm 5.5mm 5.5mm
Head Tube length L 105mm 110mmm 120mm 125mm

Canfield Balance

Canfield Balance

All this talk on bike length as it relates to the rider, how about bike length as it relates to the trails we ride? On dirt bikes there is no real sizing for adults, just different size engines so a 5’6″ dirt biker will be riding the same length 450 cc bike as someone 6’6″ as that is the length the manufacturer feels handles best (you can shorten and lengthen the chainstay a bit but it is rarely done by most riders as it requires lengthening or shortening the chain too). If there is an ideal dirt bike length then maybe there is an ideal mountain bike length? I need to ride a few more true XL’s (remember some XL’s have the same reach as a large Canfield Balance) to test my latest theory on bike length (it used to be the longer the better for my 6’3″ body) but I am starting to feel like there might be a point where bikes are just too long for the trail. I still feel if you are between sizes move to the bigger size so you can run a nice short, great handling stem but not sure if that works if you are between a large and an XL, as I like the nimbleness of my large Enduro 29er. It is much more nimble than my XL EVO 29er and way more fun to ride but that could do as much or more with the chainstay being 26 mm shorter on the Enduro. I need to ride a XL 29er with short chainstays before I know for sure if it was the long reach or the long chainstay that made the XL EVO feel so cumbersome. I ran a 35 mm stem on the XL and I currently run a 50 mm on the L Enduro so my cockpit is only 5 mm shorter on the large but honestly, the 50 mm stem doesn’t feel as good as the 35 mm! In short I feel that bikes with 420 to 430 mm chainstays and 420 to 445 mm  reach measurements handle the best given the trails that we ride. An important to thing to remember here is this whole discussion is on bike handling, for a really long ride being a little more stretched out can feel more comfortable but doesn’t feel as nimble.

Next week we will tackle the question, “can handle bars be too wide?”.

 

 

Comments

17 Comments

  1. luis

    I ride a Titus Rockstar 29er with 459mm CS and it doesn’t handle switchbacks to well. Wish it was like 20mm shorter! It’s stable at speed so somewhat of a tradeoff…I guess.

    Reply
    • Gene

      Hi Luis,

      Bike companies are finally figuring 29er’s out and that is a long chainstay (hard to make a full suspension 29er with a short chainstay!). I’m sure when you are ready for a new bike they will be even more dialed.

      Cheers,

      Gene

      Reply
  2. Eric Hollander

    Great article! I am looking at those two bikes as well. I am 6″ with a 35″ inseam and my current bike has only a 16.1″ reach which I feel is too short. For many bikes going up to an XL is too large, so I need a large with a decent reach so I can run a shorter stem.

    Have you checked out the Knolly Warden? It has one of the longest reach around for a given size.

    Reply
    • Gene

      Hey Eric,

      Just checked out the Warden, those are big bikes, would definitely run a 35 mm stem and at 6’3″ I would still get a large! Great looking bike though, know a lot of people that love their Knollys!

      Create a great new ride,

      Gene

      Reply
  3. Esteban

    great stuff i am already a firm believer in the longer bar/short stem approach to more control on my ride and it has worked out great on my other bikes but am trying to square the circle w latest ride and hope you can shed some light….I am 6’1″ and have a New Funk La Ruta 29er ( 70 deg head angle and 24.6″ top tube) )went w Enve bar 760mm, 9 degree sweep, had 35MM stem but it was WAY twitchy…change to 90 MM stem that improved things a lot so now trying to figure out why. Fork is fox 2014 Float 32 w 51MM offset so front axle is pretty far ahead of head tube centerline already maybe this is why ? So now with 90mm stem is the ” effective stem length” really 39mm taking into account the axle being offset forward? PS I put a 70MM stem on and seems like best so far but still curious as to relation of axle offset on “effective” stem length…

    Reply
    • Gene

      Hi Esteban,

      A lot of things can make a bike twitchy, including the rider. That 70 degree head angle is scary steep and big part of the twitchy feeling. Having spent a lot of time talking with Bryson Martin (fromer owner of Tenneco Marzocchi and founder of DVO suspension) about head angles and forks and he said most companies haven’t figured out the right amount of “trail” for 29ers and 650bs, that can greatly affect the handling. I honestly don’t know for sure the answer to your question about fork offset and how it might change “effective stem length”. The main benefit of short stems has little to do with fork offset, the are simply shorter levers, example: if you have a 120 mm stem and I have a 35 mm stem and we both “steer” twenty degrees to the tip of your stem and your bars are going to move quite a bit more than mine. The second benefit is weight placement, the longer the stem the more your weight moves forward making it harder to keep all of your weight on the pedals. I hope that helps. If you have 1.5 headtube look into getting an “Angle Set” headset and slacken that head angle a degree or two. That will make the bike less twitchy and all hills not seem so steep!

      Cheers,

      Gene

      Reply
  4. Paul Wintermute

    Hi Gene.
    I’ve been thinking a lot about modern trail bike geometry trends since I was in the market for a new bike last year (got a Mach 6 two months ago). Here are my thoughts: the trend had been towards a longer top tube (reach), shorter chain stay, and slacker HT angle, with shorter stems and wider bars. Personally I love all the above but the push towards 66 even 65 deg head tube angles, larger wheels, and ever longer top tubes on trail bikes have a negative side effect: wheelbase. Sure frame builders have tried to counter the ever expanding wheelbase with shorter CS but they can only go so far before there is clearance issues especially with 150-160mm travel. I think Pivot made a nice compromise and kept the TT and reach reasonable along with sub 17″ chain stays to counter the 66 deg HA. Giving a nice balance between nimbleness and stability. Look at the new SC Nomad. The top tube is not very long at all. I argue they are trying to keep wheelbase in check with that 65 deg HA. All mountain/trail bikes have a difficult balancing act especially when trying to maintain the nimbleness that the old 26″ bikes had with the stability to ride DH trails. The best of the new class of “enduro” bikes have been pulling it off amazingly well.
    Anyways I don’t think Top tubes are going to get much longer on average and boy are we lucky to have such amazing bikes to ride!
    Thanks Coach,
    Paul
    DH student from many years ago

    Reply
    • Gene

      Well put Paul, I agree, “boy are we lucky to have such amazing bikes to ride!”!

      Cheers,

      Gene

      Reply
  5. Simon

    Good article, opens up the thorney debate over frame type / wheel size nicely. I have switched recently to a nukeproof mega tr XL, with 70mm stem, & 720mm bars (warhead low risers). The frame is their 26″ wheel version with stand flow ZTR rims with maxxis DHR2’s. Me bring 6’2″. Fits perfect great stability yet nimble in tight techy trails.interestingly my wheel / tyre set up is near identical to 275’s with skinny tyres…..plus lighter / stronger / etc.

    Reply
  6. Troy Smith

    I’m not sure you can really point to motorcycles as evidence that there is an ideal size, regardless of the size of rider. I think it’s far more likely that, for economic reasons, motorcycles are sized according to the best compromise of performance for the most common sizes of riders. It’s much more profitable to only manufacture one size and make everyone ride it. It’s still far from ideal for very large or very small riders.

    Reply
    • Gene

      Good point Troy.

      Reply
  7. Brian

    That is the first time I have heard that the 10mm Mondraker handles poorly. Where are you getting that information from? Have you tested it yourself? As far as I’ve heard, the only reason they are coming with 30mm stems now is because most people wanted the ability to lower it down; not because it handled better.

    Reply
    • Gene

      Hi Brian, I have not ridden the Mondraker. I was told by a friend who works for Mondraker that it didn’t work as well as expected. Don’t think it was the stem so much as the 40mm longer (than previous models) reach on the frame making the wheelbase too big. Not sure this worth arguing over, my whole point is short stems and longer frames are better but POSSIBLY only up to a point.

      Thanks for your input,

      Gene

      Reply
      • Brian

        Hi Gene,

        Thanks for the reply. I definitely hear your point on that and I don’t mean to argue over it. It’s just that I was planning to go with a Mondraker with a 10mm stem myself as the numbers all seem to be perfect for me. However, I too have not ridden it and am only going off of the opinions and reviews of others. Most people do seem to opt for the 30mm stem on the bike to get their bars lower but I actually prefer a slightly higher bar like Fabien Barel so the 10mm stem would put it right in the ideal spot for me with a 20mm rise bar. However, this does make me somewhat concerned that maybe the wheelbase will be a bit too long or the stem too short. If I go a frame size smaller, I could use the 30mm stem but then I’d have to get a larger 40mm rise bar and compromise on some other things. Hmm…

        Reply
        • Janez

          Sorry for my language… not native speaker.
          I am a Mondraker Dune 2014 owner. 30mm come stock on mine, but a friend of mine has a 10mm on his. As i see the difference, the shorter (taller) stem makes bike front little lighter but i can’t say anything about grip level because I didn’t rode his bike on serious terrain.
          About reach and wheelbase.
          The bike is not playful, but works really well if you have the strength to manage it. I definitely feel need of some core stability workout if there is a lot of pumping or bunnyhoping on trail. Bike is not too long to handle tight turns, but wants strong rider to unload the front wheel or to shift weight in bearms.
          It is perfect for enduro racing and bike park use, for general trail riding I’d prefer a lighter probably shorter frame.

          Reply
          • Brian

            Thanks Janez, that’s good info.

  8. Lon

    I’ve been reading every article I can by you (Gene) and Andy. Hopefully one day I will be able to afford to take a camp. I’m running a 40mm stem on my Stumpjumper 29er and a 780mm wide, one inch riser bar. All is working well, but I’m wondering if I should invest in a 35mm stem or a 30mm stem. I think you said you run a 35 on one of your bikes, and I thought I read somewhere that Andy runs a 30. Do you think it is worth it to drop more money for a 35 or 30, and if so should I go with the 30 or 35? What brand would you recommend for weight, durability and price? Thanks so much!

    Reply

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Rider Reviews

Thanks again, you were a great part of my succees for 2005. I had the best year of my life. Part of which at the age of 52, I entered numerous mtn bike races, podiumed 5 times and won the Texas Mountain Bike Racing Association series for my division.

Your instruction, professsionalism and emails went above and beyond all expectations.

Kent Wells
2016

Thanks Coach Gene for your time the last 2 days! Your coaching is spot on! I’m so lucky to have had the chance to spend this time learning from the most passionate mountain biker out there – one who cares about the sport and all the techniques that go into it! Total respect! That’s all I have to say! If anyone is questioning or “thinking” about signing up for his camp- DON’T , just do! Thank you Gene!!!!

Gretchen Wavro

This was by far the best use of both money and time in regards to my mountain bike training.
Its 3 days of my life I will never forget.

Jim, BetterRide Camper

The results are starting to trickle in as I have the time to ride some of my local rides that I track my times on.  I’m astonished!

My descending time from the summit of Chimney Gulch to the Beaver Brook cross over dropped from a personal best of 6:51.0 to 5:46.0, for the bottom section it went from a personal best of 13:42.0 to 10:12.2.  Considering that I really haven’t had enough time to practice a lot yet, I’m stunned at the improvement.  I can also say that I felt more in control than I used to and I cleaned a section I’ve never had the balls to even try before.

Again Gene, I can’t thank you enough.  The camp was great.  Your ability to break skills down into digestible parts, watch riders and help them refine techniques, your humility and sense of humor make you a world class coach.  I’ll be taking your next level two clinic this year and probably a refresher next year.”

 Mark Forgy
Expert XC racer, Mountain Bike Fanatic

Just wanted to give you an update and let you know that I am starting to experience the delayed effects of your camp.  I knew when the camp ended that I was leaving with some new skills that were helpful immediately.  But I also knew there were other skills that were going to take more practice, patience and time.  Well, I’m starting to see them.  

I’ve been practicing descending the way you instructed us but until the last couple of weeks, I knew I was still faster descending the way I always had – I was just more comfortable that way.  But in the last couple of weeks, it all kind of clicked.  

I’m not winning any downhill races – yet – but all of a sudden (and it really did seem to happen pretty suddenly) your techniques took over and instead of just using them at low speeds only when I thought about it, I was using them all over the trails and feeling pretty comfortable.  Now I find myself only reverting to my old techniques when I come into a corner already off balance.  Anyway, thanks, it’s a great feeling – can’t wait to use them on race courses this year!

Sarah Kaufman
Top Pro Endurance Racer

I just wanted to let you know that I’ve had big improvements in my racing this year after taking the betteride course (about 10 minutes improvement from last year).  I got 2nd place in the beginner category at Eldora, then placed 15th out of 35 in the Sport category at Winterpark in my first ‘sport race’.   I passed people on the downhill for the first time in these two races, and am feeling much more confident on the downhills (I hit 31.5 mph max on a tight singletrack in the Eldora race).

Jonathan Jones

Tonight was the first night of practice cyclocross races.  The cornering techniques I learned in you camp last weekend rock on the cross bike.  I was able to carry speed through the corners and off cambers that I could only dream of last year!

I actually found myself cranking up the speed before the corners instead of braking. Nobody else is using this technique.  I found my self keeping pace with stronger riders just on cornering skill alone.  Imagine after I’ve a had a few weeks to practice.

I had best time of my life on a mountain bike at your camp, and look forward to doing another one next spring.

Chris Cornelison
September 24, 2010

I took your Neshaminy clinic in June.  I wanted to fill you in on my race results.  I raced all season in the Midatlantic Super Series in Women’s Sport. I won the overall championship!  I am so happy that I won!  I will be moving up to Elite next year.

I’ve been doing the drills you taught for 20 minutes, twice a week.  I almost always preride my race courses.  I work on hard sections to figure out the best lines.  Since the clinic, I have noticed that my balance has improved tremendously.

So, Gene… thank you for the clinic.  I still tell all my riding buddies about it. Especially how you break down the mechanics of everything that you teach.  I let them know how you explain the physics behind the techniques.  I tell them that the learning environment you provide is the perfect way to learn something, practice it, and really get it. I’d love to do a refresher course.

Angie Wallace
September 15, 2009

Attending Gene’s camp in Sedona was one of the best decisions that I’ve ever made. You can read skills articles and watch the youtube videos all day, but these will never engrain the skills needed to become a good mountain biker.

Gene’s course teaches you all of the primary skills, and then he drills them into you. You repeat these drills under his watchful eye until the become engrained. It’s been about 9 months since I attended the course and I still hear Gene correcting me if I’m going about an obstacle or turn in the wrong position.

I still make every ride a learning experience because of what he taught, and my riding has improved immensely as a result. Thanks Gene!

Steven Peyton
August, 2018

Just wanted to show you what your lessons made me do this past weekend!  If you click on the photo or link to the photo album look through the album and on the 2nd page, bottom row, there’s a great shot of me doing what you taught me to do with my elbows-totally Brian Lopes style. 

I was impressed to see myself doing that-a big change in my riding style and I know it’ll make me faster in the long run.

So thanks and I may have some time coming up where I can make it to one of your camps-I’ll let you know.

Amanda Riley, Kenda, Titus, Hayes Team
Winners of 2008, 24 hours of Old Pubelo

Thanks again for holding the camp last weekend.  I was finally able to get out and ride yesterday on the falcon trail (loop that goes around the Air Force Academy).  There are two sections that I have had problems with in the past.  One is a tight turn with two drop offs that are oddly spaced and the landing slopes off into some bushes.  I’ve ridden the trail a dozen times and walked that section most times.  Once I tried it and endo‘ed into the bushes.  When I rode it yesterday, I cleared it with confidence.  

I kept repeating to myself “Do or Do Not – There Is No Try”:-) I relaxed, saw the line I wanted to take, found my balance and went through the section very controlled – it was great!

The next section is a steep switchback climb with a ton of sand.  I have never made that turn, although I have tried to every time I’ve ridden the trail.  This time I approached the switchback using the techniques and strategy you taught us.  The result – made it!  No problem!

The last thing I noticed is that the whole ride was smoother.  I focused primarily on the vision techniques  – and body position skills.  The ride felt slower than what I normally ride, but it was actually six minutes faster!  Absolutely amazing!
Brad
Oct. 8, 2008 (5 days after his 3-day coaching session)

My son took your camp in winter park at age 14. He is 16 and just completed the Laramie Epic (30 miles) last weekend. He placed 2 in the age bracket 0-29. He continues to use your techniques and tips. Smooth is fast! Your worksheets are worn out and weathered from continued use! Worth it….you bet!!!

Sheila Palmer
July 2019

Your camp gave me the confidence to go out and try a few races this summer.  My first race was in the beginner 40 to 45 age class in the “Point to Point” cross country race in Winter Park.  While I certainly did not break any records – I at least had a respectable finish and more importantly had a total blast.  

My second race was a Super D (much more my style in that there is MUCH less uphill cranking) at Winter Park where I got a second place finish in my age group.  3rd race was a Mountain States Cup Super D race in Copper where I came in tenth.  Again no records but still having a total blast.  

My friends the same age as me think I am crazy doing this stuff but I think they are crazy to be sitting on their arses.  Again, thank you for giving me the confidence to go out there and try some racing and hopefully in the near future I will be in another one of your camps!

Will Edgington
September, 2009

Thanks for the e-mail.  By the way, after completing your camp in Arizona, I dropped 5 minutes off my previous best lap time at the 12 hours of Temecula mountain bike race (59 to 54 minutes).  Obviously, this was a significant breakthrough.  

I’ve also noticed that by being a smoother and more efficient rider and by decoupling my body from the bike, I exert less energy and travel faster.  “Looking to victory” works like a charm.  Most importantly, the basic skills I was exposed to in your camp (and continue to develop) have made mountain biking more enjoyable.

Keith
January 2008

I’ve been wanting to pass on a personal success story.  I participated in my first mountain bike race in Copper Harbor, MI. I placed 6th in my age group (over 6 min. behind 3rd place) on a very technical course. Considering the field, I was happy with the results.

My goal after the BetterRide camp was to be in the top 3 in the same race with a similar field. With my new found skills I placed 1st this time with 2nd place over 7 min. behind. I tore it up! Thanks, I’m always telling people that no matter how much they think they know how to ride a mountain bike, they owe it to themselves to attend one of your camps. A year later I still practice my skills every time I’m out.

BTW, a while back you suggested some reading material. I chose Body, Mind Mastery by Dan Millman. (in audio book form). Not only do I feel it helped my mountain bike skills with things like, how tension is counter productive and how the “opponent is not the enemy, but instead the teacher” it also helped me in my own personal life. Good recommendation!
Keep up the good job.

Rich Schmit
April 2011

Gene and fellow BetterRiders!
I have been smiling all day long today, thinking about our rad weekend together! I taught 4 of my kids how to do wheelies today and they thought I was super cool for a solid 5 minutes until they had it completely mastered and were smoking past my on their rear wheels. 

 
Thank you forever, Gene, for sharing your passion and deciding to teach. An empowering, motivating, completely exhilarating weekend. I feel like a little kid on Christmas morning with my new toy. It was a total honor to cross paths with you all!

Currently standing on one leg while I brush my teeth and dictate this email…
Jen  

Friends took the 3 day a while ago and really enjoyed it.

I didn’t think I was ready for that but I hired him privately for most of a day. Best experience going. It helped my skiing also. Eyes, eyes and balance via movement on the bike. 

Steamboat in the rain…..

John Rostenbur

MTB Skills Camp in Fraser, CO. It was amazing. Phenomenal skills coach, Coach Gene Hamilton, literally broke down the fundamentals of mountain biking in 3 days. Super fun fellow campers. Enjoyed every bit.

Now I need to practice and strengthen some new neural circuits. If you want to improve your MTB skills, no matter your level, take a course from Better Ride.
Patricia George

Thank you, Gene! I thoroughly enjoyed your skills camp. One of the most effective learning environments I have experienced to date. Now it is all about due diligence!

 I am interested in a “day with Gene in Moab” and future course offerings.

Ryan Bertram

 

Gene, The first thing I did was buy some cones. My drive way is pretty steep so can do switch backs there. My pedal wheelies are coming along. Yesterday I had a bit of a breakthrough ride with my vision. On a ride with some small drop offs I realized by using the vision technique I was more balanced, more comfortable and jumped further without trying. 

That was the best clinic I have ever done. Thanks for the reading list. I’ve read a number of those books but I now have more to read.

Don Leet

 

 

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