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2 Things You Can Buy and Instantly Improve Your Bike Handling!
That's right, your bike set-up can improve your riding!
I have spent the last 15 years studying bike handling and how bike setup effects bike handling. In that time I have kept and open mind and experimented with bars as narrow as 22" and as wide as 32" and stems from 150mm to 30mm. I didn't invent a single skill or bike set-up theory myself I tired what other, "better riders" suggested. Everything I teach I have learned through others (world champions like Marla Streb and Greg Minnaar, motorcycle coaches, ski coaches, gymnastic coaches) and then personally tested out their ideas and had many of my top students (Pro racers like Ross Schnell, Chris Van Dine, Lynda Wallenfells, etc.) test these theories.
Wider handle bars and a shorter stem give you more control. 27-30 inch handle bars depending on your height and a 50-80 mm stem provides the best handling. Handlebar height is important too, your bars should be 1”-3” lower than your seat when it is raised to optimum climbing height.
Your handlebars are one of the main inputs of control and wider bars give you much more control (because they are more stable (think of doing a push up with your hands 21" apart and then 29" apart. If I were trying to knock you over would I have more luck with your hands 21" apart or 29"?). We have all hit a rock that wanted to violently twist our front wheel to the side. Can you see how a wider bar would give you more leverage to fight this? I understand many of you have fear issues related to going through narrow trees and riding scared is a recipe for disaster but narrow handlebars create a twitchy, unstable ride. Do you want to set you bike up to function well on the 3 or 4 narrow tree gaps or the rest of the trail.
Wider bars also allow you to keep your arms bent and chest down allowing you to ride in a more athletic, neutral position. Perfect for riding smoothly and adjusting to anything and everything the trail throws at you.
Your stem is a not a bike fit device, it greatly effects the control of your bike. Motorcycles don't have stems for a reason, a long stem puts you out of balance (too much weight forward) straightens your arms (taking you out of a neutral position) and the long lever of a stem more than 90 millimeters long makes your steering "flop" to the side instead of being precise.
So for a more controlled ride go with a 50 to 80mm stem and 27"-30" wide bars. I know this goes against tradition so please try this set up for a week before commenting. If you understand correct body position, how bikes turn and how to manual or wheelie correctly (using no upper body strength) you will love the control this gives you.
The coolest thing you will notice is how much this helps with technical climbing, no more wheel swerving all over the place it will track nice and straight. The best technical climber I know runs a 30mm stem. I run a 60mm stem on all of my xc bikes and a 40-50 mm stem on my downhill bikes.
By Jen 04/20/2010 - 9:36 am
How are short women (e.g. 5’5″ and under) supposed to get a front cockpit on a bike that is 1″-3″ lower than their seat? Are you saying we should get a deep drop stem and flip it?
A 3″ drop seems excessive and uncomfortable, not that I have ever had a mtb with bars lower than my seat.
How does this affect going downhill and the tendency to endo?
Also, wouldn’t a drastically shorter stem mean you might suddenly be too big for your bike?
Lastly, it seems like bar sweep and rise would need to be factored in. Bar sweep (e.g. the 9-12 degrees you can get today in XC bars) would effectively bring the bars closer for a given stem length.
Can you comment on these? Thanks!
By stripes 04/20/2010 - 11:38 am
While you’re right about this, the one thing you leave out is you may need to up your frame to the next larger size if you go with this setup or it’ll be waaay too twitchy.
I did do this, but I didn’t see the benefits until I upgraded to the next frame size up. Now I’m rocking 711mm bars with a 50mm stem and it feels great.
By Gene 04/20/2010 - 11:44 am
Hi Jen,
The 1-3″ is based on height, for you 1″ drop would be great. Ryan Trebron who is 6’5″ or 6’6″ has probably a 6″ drop on his bike!
The short stem and wider bars put you in an a more neutral position so less chance of endo.
If your bike is already on the short side you may want to go up a frame length but for many people the wider bars leave them in a similar position as they had with narrow bars and long stem so there is no need to change.
By Rob Lawrence 04/21/2010 - 4:55 am
Very interesting. I have just measured my Mojo which I use (badly) for intermediate trail riding.
I am 5 ft 8 and have a medium frame, ( I seem to fit squarely into the medium frame area) and my stem is currently 80mm and the bars 27.25″. The cente of the bar at the end of the grips is about even with the saddle height for climbing.(I have the end of the bars upswept a little)
I am guessing about 1″ down would be close?
I have broad shoulders, so should I get wider bars for my height as a result?
If so that would be 29″ ? and perhaps a 60-70mm stem. My arms and legs are pretty normal length for my height.
I had been wondering about lowering handlebar, (easily done as the bike has a very short head tube length) along with a shorter stem but as nobody much else does this I had delayed the “experiment”
And thank you for your very helpful emails
Maybe one day you might be over here in New Zealand!
Cheers
Rob
By Christian 04/21/2010 - 8:01 am
Hi Gene.
If going to a shorter stem, is there any adjustment needed to saddle position? If I go from a 90mm to an 80mm stem, should I shift my saddle back 10mm, or is saddle position irrelevant?
Also you’ve mentioned that 50mm-80mm is a good range for stem length. Do you have a rule of thumb regarding picking an appropriate stem length within this range, or is it just trial and error?
Lastly- do you have any advice regarding flat bars vs riser bars.
Cheers,
Christian.
By Gene 04/21/2010 - 9:05 am
Hi Rob,
Yes, a 60mm stem and 29″ bars would keep you in about the same position but give you more control. 27.25″ is not super narrow but your trail allow you to get away with the 29s you will like them. Lowering your bar will also help with control.
Wow, I must have 20 subscribers in New Zealand! I have always wanted to check out NZ so maybe a working vacation is in order this Jan. or Feb.!
By Gene 04/21/2010 - 9:16 am
Hi Christian,
You shouldn’t need to adjust your saddle position as it is important for seated pedaling. You might have to hinge at the hips a little more though. I and many of my coaches and students feel 50-60 is best and 70-80 for those whos top tube is a little short and would feel cramped (knees hitting bars) any shorter.
Flat bars vs. riser bars. Until recently it has been hard to find wide flat bars but now a lot of manufacturers are stepping up and making them. What matters is your bar height relative to your seat height so use the bars that give you that 1-3 drop I mentioned.
By James 04/21/2010 - 12:16 pm
I currently run a 100mm 10 degree rise stem with riser bars and my bars and saddle height are about the same. I am going to try a shorter stem based on your recommendation and see how it feels because I do feel like the bike “dives” into corners to hard and I feel as though I am constantly correcting in the turns.
Here is my question; to achieve the 1”-3” saddle/bars offset does it matter how I accomplish this as long as the 1”-3” difference is there? I can remove some spacers to lower the stem on the steerer, I can flip the stem or go with a non-rise stem, I can go to a lower rise or flat bars all of which would get me to that 1”-3” difference but I assume each option has a different affect on the steering. Which option is best in your option to get optimal steering feedback while still achieving the 1”-3” difference?
Thanks – James
By Gene 04/21/2010 - 1:45 pm
Hi James,
Interesting question. I honestly don’t think it matters how you get the bars to that level. I will ask some of my coaches and more advanced students what they feel about this.
Cheers,
Gene
By James 04/22/2010 - 4:20 pm
Hey Gene, were you able to find out any answers on my question? I’m looking to make some changes this weekend and I want to make sure I head down the best path.
Thanks,
James
By Jeff 04/22/2010 - 6:02 pm
James,
If you got an shorter stem with no rise you would lose about 3/4″ with that alone and then you could easily remove spacers to play around with getting it lower.
Jeff
By Gene 04/22/2010 - 6:55 pm
Hi James,
Yes, it doesn’t matter how you get the bars at the right height.
Have fun this weekend.
Cheers,
Gene
By Josh 04/22/2010 - 11:52 pm
Hi,
I am on a medium size Santa Cruz Heckler. I am 5’10″. I ride my bike All Mountain and even cross into the Light Freeride range. But as an all mountain biker I do still spend quite a bit of time climbing.
I recently went from a 90mm stem to a 50mm stem. My bars are only 26″ wide.
The biggest thing I noticed is that when I am climbing very technical terrain my bike gets really twitchy up front (wheelies, front tire stops tracking straight, etc).
Coming downhill my bike has never felt better.
Will going to a 29″ handlebar make the bike climb better? What else can I do to still benefit from the 50mm stem (love the DH now), but still allow my bike to climb like it used to?
I have the Lyrik Coil U-Turn Fork, so I am able to adjust my fork height. When I drop it to 115mm it feels great for climbing, 160mm it feels great for DH..but maybe dropping it all the way to 115mm is causing the effective top tube to be way too short for climbing?
Thanks for any input,
Josh
By Gene 04/23/2010 - 7:59 am
Hi Josh,
29 inch bars will help in the climbing department as will getting a little further forward on the saddle and/or lowering your chest a bit more (it is wheelieing because there is not enough weight on the front of the bike). The whole goal of the u-turn fork is exactly what you are doing with it. At 115 it effectively lowers the handle bars and steepens the head angle when climbing and at 160 it brings the bars back to normal height and slackens the head angle when descending.
By Keith 04/27/2010 - 1:18 pm
Found this post at a very timely moment.
I am riding a Kona The King 18″ frame. But with a 110mm stem and probably 640mm or 660mm bars.
With this set up I have a very twitch front end on steep climbs.
I was look at going to 80 or 90 stem with 725mm bars. Does degree of rise on the stem matter? I was looking at the basic 5-7 degree range of stems
By Gene 04/27/2010 - 3:55 pm
Hi Keith,
the rise of the stem is somewhat important as you want the bars 1″-3″ lower than your seat (when seat is at climbing height). Remember the widers bars and shorter stem will help a lot but you still need good body position.
Cheers,
Gene
By Roberto Sanchez 04/30/2010 - 9:58 am
Hi Gene:
I am 6’1″ height and my frame is large, at present my stem is 110 mm and handlebar 24.5″. I want to try your theory for more control, what size you recommend to me for stem and handlebar?
Thanks a lot, regards
Roberto
By Gene 04/30/2010 - 11:17 am
Hi Roberto,
I am 6’3″ and ride a large with a 60mm stem and 30″ bars I would start with those sizes, give at week and see how it feels.
Cheers,
Gene
By Jeff 04/30/2010 - 6:05 pm
Gene, Check these out, a friend of mine saw these at Sea Otter, ODI is making some new bars that are adjustable by threading in inserts on the end.
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/odi-sea-otter-2010.html
Jeff
By Dial In Your Ride: Starting With the Right Stem - FeedTheHabit.com 05/14/2010 - 1:47 am
[...] up and see what you like best. Also, check out Gene Hamilton’s suggestions on stem length at BetterRide.net (which I agree with [...]
By chris 05/14/2010 - 3:18 pm
How does head tube angle play into all this? While i understand the benefits of a shorter/wider setup it will quicken up your steering quite a bit in some cases.
As an example my current rig has a steep 71 HA and going from the stock 110mm (i have went as long as 120mm)to a 90mm made the bike extremely twitchy to the point (imho) of being almost unrideable.
Now that people are starting to feel these longer stems should go the way of the Dodo does the same apply to steeper head tube angles even on shorter travel, XC focused bikes?
By Gene 05/14/2010 - 4:23 pm
Hi Chris,
Good question. Steeper head tube angles really need to go the way of the dodo! They help you in really steep climbs and really tight switchback but scare the heck of riders on the downhills and creat a twitchy front end. A short stem at least puts you more centered on the bike and less weight way out in front of your front axle. The stem length did not make the bike twitchy, the head angle made it twitchy.
Create a more in control riding position,
Gene
By chris 05/15/2010 - 7:07 pm
Thanks Gene. It will be interesting to see how the geometry of XC bikes evolve over the next few years. Considering what you said I can see why a skilled rider would still opt for the longer option for straight up XC racing which,as far as i can tell, is won on the climbs.
A quick side note of possible interest: The bike i actually ride, the Giant Anthem X, was designed by Adam Craig and specced with the steep 71 HA. He now runs (and supposedly many others) a 20mm longer fork to slacken it out a bit. Even with the change he actually still runs a 120mm stem which makes me assume the downhills do not scare him too much!
Thanks
By Ryan 05/16/2010 - 7:09 pm
Gene, I am getting ready to get back in to mt. biking after years of lots of cycling. am looking at 29er hardtails, if that matters. big concern is my size. im 6’5″, 190ish. Frame will be an XL (20″ – 21″), what should i be looking at for stems and bar widths?
Thanks,
Ryan
By Jeff 05/17/2010 - 6:34 pm
Just because Adam Craig runs a certain set up doesn’t mean it’s best for us mortals, that’s like saying we sould run the same skis and binding set up as Bode Miller.
By Steve in Boise 05/18/2010 - 2:26 pm
Fabulous! I’ve been teaching recreational downhill/technical skills for many years and have used this very formula for bike setups. I can tell you that it has had instant results for many. Frame and stem sizes have been evolving from road bikes much slower than suspensions and brakes. Trust the advice you find here. Longer wheelbases, wider bars, shorter stems slow down all the forces that create anxiety. Thank you for this site!
By Gene 05/19/2010 - 11:36 am
Hi Ryan,
I am 6’3″ and ride 30″ bars so I would say 31″ is a good starting point for you. I personally feel a 40-60mm stem is optimal.
Have fun,
Gene
By Dan O 05/21/2010 - 7:52 am
Good advice. This guy knows what is up. I ride alot of both XC and downhill and was told about the shorter stem/wide bar thing when I first started downhilling 7 years ago. The difference is pretty amazing.
By Randy 05/25/2010 - 4:58 am
OK I am no downhiller so should I still ride wide bars. The longest I have been able to find that will not break the bank are Easton Monkeylite Carbon DH bars. They are right around 28 inches. I am 6’2″ and ride a 21″ Rocky (current Race Face bar is 25 inches). Would those be wide enough? If so what size stem would you recommend? I ride XC and lately have been hitting BMX parks. I am desring to get into some All Mountain more technical stuff. So thought? Thanks!
By Gene 05/25/2010 - 9:56 am
Hi Randy,
I am 6′3″ and ride 30″ bars on my xc bike and 31.75 on my dh bike so I would say 28-30″ is a good starting point for you. I personally feel a 40-60mm stem is optimal. Your bike shop will probably laugh at you but if you get into the correct body position you will feel the stability and control right away.
Have fun,
Gene
By Chris Cornelison 05/28/2010 - 3:33 pm
Gene,
I’m wondering about stem length on a cyclocross bike. I suspect the same principals are a work although the handle bars allow for different hand positions. If your on the hoods, your really far out over the steering axle. I changed to wider bars with flared drops last year (big improvement in stability), and I will probably try to find a 60mm stem to experiment with. Just wondering if you have any experience with this or know anyone who has experimented.
Thanks,
Chris
By Gene 05/28/2010 - 6:42 pm
Hi Chris,
Good question. A lot of the same physics would apply the bars are way different. Let me know how this works out.
Cheers,
Gene
By Seth 06/01/2010 - 1:02 pm
Hey Gene thanks for all the information you have presented here.
I have my bike (now my wife’s) set up exactly like you recommend, sort of by accident.
The frame is a Trek Fuel 80 17.5″ frame with 80mm rear travel, 130mm travel forks, 26″ bars 70mm stem with 6 degree rise. The bars are 2″ lower than the seat and with the longer travel forks the bike has a longer wheel base and great geometry for downhills.
Thanks again for the great article. I am now convinced that I will set up my current build exactly how you recommend.
By Gene 06/01/2010 - 1:49 pm
Great to hear Seth! Create your best ride yet!
Gene
By Randy 06/05/2010 - 3:56 pm
Hey Gene thanks for your reply. I have another question. I want to use carbon bars and the widest I can find are Easton ML DH 28″ or Race Face SIXC 28.5″. Do you know of a wider carbon bar than that anywhere if I want to go wider? Thanks!
By Gene 06/07/2010 - 9:38 am
Hi Randy,
28.5 is the widest carbon bar I have heard of. right now if you to go wider you suffer a weight penalty and have to go to “downhill” bars. 28.5 is a good width if you are under 5’11″ (approx. depends on shoulder width, arm length, hip mobility), a little narrow if you are taller than that.
By Chris Cornelison 06/09/2010 - 6:23 pm
Gene,
Finally had a chance to try shortening the stem on my cross bike. Went from 110mm to 60mm. It had exactly the same affect as on the mountain bike. Way less twitchy!!! A much better handling ride. With the long stem, when I dropped a plumb line from where you would place you hands when riding on the hoods, my hands would actually be directly over the front axle. With the short stem they are almost a inch and a half behind the front axle. I pretty sure this makes all the difference.
Chris
By Jeff 06/11/2010 - 7:22 pm
The new ODI Flight Control Bars start out at 29.5″ and you can add 1/2″ or 3/4″ to each side for a max of 31″. ODI gave me a weight of 330g for the bars without the extensions. Come in lots of colors. I’m not a gram counter but that doesn’t seem to heavy to me for their width.
By JOSE 06/14/2010 - 7:39 pm
hi, i try what you recomend and it was bad,my bike is specialized pitch pro head angle 67 i run wide handlebars 30, i change the stem 70mm for a 50mm, thinking it will handle better in the downhills and it was so bad goin down the bike feels so nervius almost imposible to control, and also the climbing was a nightmare, i need more energy to control the bike moving forward all the time, i change to 100mm and it was like another bike climbs perfect every pedal stroke goes right in the cranks you dont have to move to much forward in step climbs and you have more power whit your arms whit longer stem, also goin down is much better i think because whit longer stem you put more wheigt in the front tire so handle much better and you dont feel the bike that nervius, i realy think and thats my opinion that you need some weight in front tire goin down,
By Gene 06/14/2010 - 10:42 pm
Wow Jose. That is really odd. All of the best riders in the World that I have learned from (World Cup Overall Champions Greg Minnaar and Nathan Rennie) and the riders I coach like Mitch Ropelato love their 50 mm stems, especially for descending. Sounds like your bike is too short for you or you don’t have the correct body position down. You want you weight center on the pedals when descending. It took me a week to get used to my short stem (after 10 years with a longer one I was really used to the long one) but for the last 15 years I have loved my short stem.
By John 06/15/2010 - 12:34 am
Hi Gene,
I haven’t gotten a nice wide bar yet, but I did go from a 90mm to a 60mm stem on my single speed. I think it feels better. I’m not sure that lowering my handlebar will help for SS’ing though. I may have to raise it a touch for my style. Have any comments about the difference between FS and SS?
Also, geometry differences between 26″ and 29″ frames should be considered. I LIKE 72* head tube angles with 47mm rake on my 29er. (Maybe I would like slacker if I could try it though)
Thanks,
John
By Gene 06/15/2010 - 8:16 am
Hi John,
SS bikes require that you are in the wrong gear for most of the ride often requiring you to use a lot of arm strength instead of just leg strength. Otherwise a mtn bike is a mtn bike descending on a rigid bike requires the exact same technique and body position as descending on a downhill bike. As for liking a 72 degree head angle, of course you do, it is what you are used to. A slacker head angle would feel much better in most situations though (assuming you are riding in the correct body position and actual looking 20-50 feet ahead not thinking you are looking ahead but actually looking about 2 feet in front of your wheel (like I did for years). I didn’t invent the idea of wide bars, short stems and slacker head angles. I am just teaching what I have learned from the best riders in the sport and through experimentation with what they do/believe.
By John 06/15/2010 - 3:49 pm
Fair enough. That comment also covered my question about the Gravity Dropper post too.
What are the good wide (light?) bars out there? I can’t seem to find many in the 28.5″ length (I’m 5’9″).
Thanks Gene!
By Gene 06/15/2010 - 10:18 pm
Hi John,
I don’t remember if it was Monkey light or Easton but they are the only company making 28.5″ carbon bars. Most other companies make slightly heavier dh bars. The wider the bar the more leverage so weight does have to go up (to make the bars strong enough).
By Roberto Sanchez 06/22/2010 - 10:03 pm
Hi Gene:
Me again, your recommendation to my height was 30″ wide for handlebar and a 60 mm for stem, but the problem is that I only can get 27″ wide and feels really better. Should I get anyway a 60 mm stem o can be 80 mm? Because I think there is a relation between wider and shorter. Thanks a lot.
Roberto
By Jay 06/23/2010 - 11:35 am
Hey Gene, great info, thanks. I ride a 29-inch Specialized racing hardtail with steep angles that often sent me over the bars going down. I flipped the 90mm stem, and it made a huge difference. Now, I’m considering getting a 50mm stem with the same 10 degree rise as the 90mm. First question, does the short stem philosophy hold with 29er’s in terms of handling?
I’m 5’8″, bike is 17.5 inch medium, bars are flat, 26″ wide. Second question- given my height, should I consider wider bars in combination with the shorter stem?
By Jay 06/24/2010 - 2:41 pm
I should have looked at the link below on Feed the Habit- he uses the carbon version of my bike, the Specialized Stumpjumper 29 which needed “stem surgery”. I guess that answers my question about shorter stems on 29ers, although any other info you have on that would be appriciated.
By Gene 06/24/2010 - 5:52 pm
Yes and Yes. The stem length and bar length is even more important on 29ers. The heavier and larger wheels require more leverage to turn and/or keep straight when hitting a larger obstacle. The usually steeper head angle on a 29er make them a little twitchy and scary on steep descents both of which are greatly reduced by a short stem.
By Gene 06/24/2010 - 5:55 pm
Hi Roberto,
80mm is at the long end of my short stem size but a decent stem length. A 60mm stem will likely handle a little better as would slightly wider bars depending on your height. 27″ bars are great if you are under 5’4″ and/or ride a lot of trails with narrow tree gaps. My head coach Andy is 5’6″ and runs 29″ bars on his xc bike and am 6’3″ and run 30s.
By Randy 06/25/2010 - 5:07 pm
Okay Gene so I finally got my new bar and stem. I went with the Easton Havoc DH which is 750mm or 29.5 inches and I bought a Thomson 50mm stem. My original bar was 25 inches and stem was 115mm. So this was a big change. I have not ridden on a trail yet but just around my yard and my street I can feel a good difference turning and standing up pedaling. It feels a little weird sitting down but once I get used to it I think it is going to be great. Thanks for the tip!
By Randy 06/27/2010 - 4:50 pm
Me again back to back
I am wanting to make sure my wife’s set up is right for her. She is a hair under 5’2″. Her current stem if i measured correctly is about 63mm and her handlebars are 24″. I have a set of 25″ handlebars (the ones I took off of my bike) that I could put on. what would you suggest for her? Thx!
By Gene 06/28/2010 - 1:09 pm
Try your 25″ bars and let her ride them for at least 5-7 rides and how they feel, I bet she likes them.
By Bill 07/02/2010 - 11:45 am
Hi Gene,
I have 2 questions about shorter stems and wider bars. 1. Does the also apply to 29ers? I am getting ready to build one up and want to select the right components. 2. What is optimum climbing height for the seat?
I recently went from a 90mm stem and 26″ bars to a 75mm stem and 27″ bars as well as putting a larger tire up front and WOW! what a difference. I am 5’11″ and will be looking for the parts to go wider on the bars and shorter yet on the stem. What do you think would be the optimal set up for my height? (Getting ready to lower the bars slighly as well. They are just below even right now)
Thanks for all the great tips!
By Roberto Sanchez 08/09/2010 - 8:11 pm
Hi Gene:
You must be very proud for your coaching skills, because I did follow your recommendations about wider handlebar, shorter stem and downhill technique. Yesterday I really feel the innovations. Thanks a lot for help me to increase my self-confidence, feel more in control and confortable too, I really enjoyed the ride.
Thanks again, I will reading.
By Gene 08/09/2010 - 8:49 pm
Hi Roberto,
Glad to hear following my advice is paying off! I love helping others improve and it is really neat hearing from someone I have met. Thanks man, you made my day.
By Tom 10/21/2010 - 8:58 pm
Do you try to get handlebar height 1″ to 3″ below the seat for shorter riders on smaller bikes as well? Do you ever use a flat bar to help get this height lower? Thanks!
By Gene 10/22/2010 - 11:29 am
Hi Tom,
For riders 5’6″ and under strive for a 1 inch drop which often requires flat bars. Sometimes for riders under 5’2″ the best they can do is get the bars even with the seat.
By Ollie 11/10/2010 - 2:26 pm
I’m really enjoying the control and stability of my new 70mm stem and 725mm bars – but I feel like I may have shortened the cockpit too much. I tend to get some lower back stiffness after longer rides – especially with lots of climbing. Can I move the saddle back to compensate without upsetting pedaling/balance – or should I look for a size up on the frame? thanks!
By Gene 11/10/2010 - 2:45 pm
Hi Ollie,
Not being there to observe, the lower back pain could be do to a lot of things such as an unstable core, seat angle that forces you to use your lower back when pedaling, etc. It could also be because of your shorter cockpit, if you believe that to be the case definitely look for a bike with longer “front center” measurement. If you go to a longer frame you will probably find the ride is more stable too. Good luck and let us know what you end up doing.
Cheers,
Gene
By Michael 11/18/2010 - 6:36 pm
Gene,
What about the seat angle causes one to use their lower back when pedaling?
Also I fairly short 5’7″ and ride a 29er. My seat is an inch ABOVE my bars. I run a straight bar. There are a few spacers I can move around to get the bar close to the level of the seat. The geometry of the frame and rider prevent me from going lower than the seat.
Thoughts?
By Gene 11/24/2010 - 8:01 pm
Hi Michael,
For me it was that my seat was tilted back so when I was climbing it was tilted even further back. This made it so my hips were rocked back and I wasn’t able to use them for power and instead I was using my quads and lower back. By tilting my seat forward my hips are not rocked back allowing me to use them correctly instead of my lower back.
Your seat should be 1″-3″ above your bar so it sounds like your bar is in a good place.
By chris 11/22/2011 - 1:45 pm
Gene,
when you say the seat should be 1″-3″ above the bars…is that where the hands grip the bars or the center of the bars? my bars have a rise to them so there is a difference.
thanks,
Chris
By Gene 11/22/2011 - 1:53 pm
Hi Chris,
Where the hands grip the bars.
By Jana Kammerer 11/27/2011 - 7:40 pm
Gene,
Can you eat ben and jerry’s while biking?
So awesome that you’ve followed your bliss and are doing what you love. <3
All the best to you,
Jana
By Ian 12/12/2011 - 3:39 pm
Hello Gene,
I’m glad I found this site.
I am looking to get a new full suspension 29er.
I currently ride a medium stumpjumper 26er full suspension bike.
My current setup has a 100mm stem and I slide my seat back on the rails to get a comfortable reach.
I doubt I’d be able to change my current bike to follow your recommendations due to the frame size.
I’m 5’10″ with a 32″ inseam and typically have a choice between medium and large frames.
On mountain bikes I’ve always gone for the medium frame. Reasoning that the smaller frame is easier to manuever, especially on technical trails.
I’m starting to rethink this approach.
Right now I am trying to choose between getting a Trek Rumblefish in a large frame or a Niner Rip 9 in a medium frame.
I have tried the medium trek rumblefish but it feels a little cramped (same TT as current bike) and would require a 100mm stem and probably the seat slid back, like my current bike, to get a comfortable reach.
The large trek has the same top tube length as the medium Rip 9 but the trek has ~20mm longer wheelbase.
The chainstay length is very close for both frames so the extra length on the trek is on the front triangle. Both headtubes are ~69 degrees.
When I ride the trek it feels like a bigger bike because it is.
My question is on 29ers is it better to go with a longer wheel base or a shorter wheel base if the other fit factors (like TT length) are roughly equal?
Should I be concerned with my initial impressions of a frame feeling large or just trust that being able to comfortably run a shorter stem and configure it as you recommend will allow me to “adjust” to this type of setup?
I’m trying to be open to new ways of sizing that may help my riding skills. I already know there will be a learning curve for going from a 26er to a 29er.
And I’m not sure if I should totally trust what feels comfortable since I’ve been riding a more old school setup on a 26er.
Thanks,
Ian
By Gene 12/13/2011 - 9:09 am
100mm stems are just wrong, size your bike around a 50-75mm stem. At your height you should be on a large. Specialized has a new “Evo” stump jumper 29er with a 68 degree head angle, that is the bike I would buy right now.
By DrookitMunter 12/25/2011 - 7:07 am
Mixing imperial with metric, you naughty naughty boy
By roberto sanchez 02/12/2012 - 1:20 am
Hi Gene:
I wrote in 2010. I had a Marin bike with a large frame and you recommend me a 60mm stem, (I am a 6 ft tall) now I change my bike to Specialized Epic full suspension large frame too, but I dont feel to comfortable as in the Marin, I need a shorter stem? I feel the handlebar little far.
Best regards,
Roberto
By Stacey 03/07/2012 - 8:08 am
Gene,
I am in the process of building up a 19″ Redline Monocog Flight rigid SS 29er. I am 5′ 9.5″ tall with a 32″ inseam. I got this size frame b/c I thought it would be on the upper edge of what would fit me while using a short stem/wide bar combo. I plan on using a wide, flat sweep bar and am looking at two bars right now: One bar is 740mm wide with 12deg. sweep and the other is 710mm wide with 9deg. sweep. I was thinking of trying out the 80mm stem due to the width and sweep of the bars. Do you compensate for the sweep of the bar with a bit longer stem than you would normally recommend or does the width cancel the sweep out? Should I go with a shorter stem? Which bar width would you recommend for someone my size? This site is very informative and this particular post has been extremely helpful. Thanks alot.
Regards,
Stacey
By Tom Conlon 03/27/2012 - 4:59 pm
Hi Gene,
Today I test rode my bike with the shorter stem. I went from a 100mm to a 60mm. Let me qualify my abilities by telling you that I am an intermediate cross country trail rider who has been mountain biking for 20 years. No pretensions to being a racer.
I have to say that I was amazed at the difference in handling that 40mm could make. The bike was twitchy and was pushed around by even small rocks. I had expected that I would be able to lift the front end more easily over big rocks but it actually felt more difficult. Certainly my riding technique needs improvement but as far as instantly improving my skills by changing the bar stem, I found the exact opposite. It was downright scary while riding on the edge of a steep hillside.
I know you said to give it a week but I won’t risk wasting another ride. I’m going back to the stock stem. I’m interested to read if other better riders found similar results.
Best regards,
Tom
By Gene 03/28/2012 - 2:09 pm
Hi Tom,
It is very hard to defend a long stem. It definitely does all the bad things I have said in my article. Is hard to believe that you put a 60mm stem and 29-31″ wide bars on your bike and it got twitchier. Usually riders are astounded at how much more stable the bike is and how much more control they have when they widen the bars and shorten the stem. Then again you didn’t mention wider bars nor did you follow my advice about trying it for a week (anything new after 20 years is going to feel weird!). I would highly suggest you read my article again and follow all the advice (which may mean buying a bike with a longer reach depending on your current bike) and really test out the wide bars and shorter stem for a while, if you don’t like it after 5 or 6 rides you don’t like it go back to your old set up.
Here is what BetterRiders typically say in our camps: Me: “Cool, you went out last night and got a shorter stem and wider bars! I know it feels weird but give it a few days and you will love it.” Students’ responses usually go like this, “feel weird?, it feels great, so much more stable and way more control”.
I do not sell or have stock in handlebar or stem companies so I do not benefit from passing on this advice that was handed down to me, so why would I put it out there if I wasn’t certain it worked? I do because our students love riding better and it is satisfying to hear them say things like this: http://www.bikemojo.com/speak/showthread.php?92241-Betterride-net&p=1067353
By Gene 03/28/2012 - 2:15 pm
Hi Stacey,
I am about to write an article about bars with a lot of back sweep, I dislike them. The more back sweep a bar has the more it moves your elbows in, putting you in an nonathletic position (elbows in). I have your ever ridden an old 3spd with bars that bend straight back towards you? They are very twitchy. I feel you should go for 740mm minimum, 780mm better (you can always cut it down if you don’t like it after 5-6 rides) with 6 degrees or less of back sweep.